Posts by drew sagan

15

Cultural Mormons

by drew sagan in

over the past few days i have been doing some research on the mormon church.

i'm thinking hard about becoming a member.

ok, just kidding.

drew sagan

What in the world about this weird religion would make a person want to be in that culture if you didn't believe it? (same for JW, I guess - but wouldn't it be safer to say that you were bowing to peer pressure, or family issues if you did this?)

For a JW - who in the world wants to go to hours of meetings, forego all benefits of education, maybe die from blood transfusion issues, and embarrass themselves door to door weekly?

You're comparing the mormon experience to the JW one, two things that are not exactly the same. That's why I thought I would bring this up. Typically we think of both groups in many of the same ways, but I think the Mormons have really evolved past the JWs on this one.

Mormons are a much more social group. The inside of their churches have activity rooms, sunday school, and many more different things. To me it appears that they actually have a very rich culture. I'm sure there are many more things, but those are some of the few things I do know about. From what I have found there still are many of the same pressures to conform and such, but it does not occur in the same way the JWs do it.

I think another big factor is field service. Not all mormons go door to door weekly. I think that when it comes to weekly activity the mormons are less demanding on the individual, and they also have more choices and variety. It seems as though 'faders' have a much easier time in the LDS church than those in the Watchtower. The fact that there are multiple websites filled with members describing this attest to that fact. On the other hand, there is barely anybody on the net talking about living in the WTS while not believing it. Most are trying to find a way out and stay out.

23

How To Get People Out

by OneFootIn in

jw
friends

has anyone had any success in getting anyone else out?

how do you even go about doing this without getting df'd for apostasy?

is there any way of using the principles we learned about preaching in reverse to get people out?

drew sagan

After a peroid of about 8-months, my wife came out of the organization.

I do not believe there was any argument that helped me get her out. What I made sure to do was create an open atmosphere in which she felt comfortable talking about anything. There was also a good many months we were both attending meetings. I would direct some criticism on the Elders and local needs parts. Because the local congregation was full of depressed and sad people, I was able to use it as a starting point for talking about how the leadership was out of touch. This helped her open up and vocalize some criticism of the organization. The point was that I never simply yelled "it's not the truth, here is why..."

To many people try to argue their friends and family out of the Watchtower. Ain't gonna happen. Rather cultivate an open and honest relationship by which you allow a person to vocalize the doubts they probably already have. The hard part is this sometimes takes many months, something that some are not patient enough to deal with.

13

No JW-info booth at the airport?

by Jim_TX in

yesterday, i had the opportunity to go to the airport and take my wifes' son - who had to fly back home - to the airport.. usually, i have a mixture of dread, and anticipation as i walk through the airport, as the jws have an airport-provided kiosk where only the elite jws are allowed to man (or woman), and hand out literature (you have to be on a list to do this - and usually only long-time pioneers get the opportunity).

the previous trip - when we picked him up, i seem to remember it was there, and i gave a big smile - and 'hello' to the individuals posted there with their litter-ature scattered about on the kiosk tabletop.. well... yesterday... i looked for the kiosk - thinking that i would like to say 'hello' again as we passed by.

no one is there, but the kiosk is sitting off to the side.

drew sagan

I saw the JWs in a San Diego Airport once. They were their when I arrived in the city, but four days later there was nobody there. Guess they have some openings for different shifts!

15

Cultural Mormons

by drew sagan in

over the past few days i have been doing some research on the mormon church.

i'm thinking hard about becoming a member.

ok, just kidding.

drew sagan

My friends love me unconditionally. -- they just think its the loving thing not to talk to me -- its strange and i think the org needs refinement there, but my friends certainly love me.

I would tend to agree with this statement more had I not seen how much active JWs vilified those who left the movement. There was around 5-8 people that I can remember who left the religion and all were slandered beyond belief after they were gone. They were viewed as traitors and their names were dragged through the mud. What makes it quite awkward is when these ones come back to the hall and everybody is their friend. I had a hard time with this. People talked dirt on individuals when they were gone, but as long as they were practicing JWs they were friends again. It fit the perception that it was all conditional friendship.

Maybe your friends are different, but the few congregations I had association with showed a very different attitude.

15

Cultural Mormons

by drew sagan in

over the past few days i have been doing some research on the mormon church.

i'm thinking hard about becoming a member.

ok, just kidding.

drew sagan

I'll ditto those comments by New light for you. I see that Solace1998 is a new member here (welcome!). I know what it was like to just be coming on a message board like this one. Still halfway believing that the JWs are the truth, and still seeing the movement in a very positive light. It was a confusing time.

Hope you stick with coming here Solace, your comments are appreciated.

15

Cultural Mormons

by drew sagan in

over the past few days i have been doing some research on the mormon church.

i'm thinking hard about becoming a member.

ok, just kidding.

drew sagan

i dont agree with all of your statement -- The witnesses I know live very interesting lives. As a matter of fact, when i lived as a witness, my life was filled with alot of cool things. I am a musician, and i cant even count how many other witness musicians ive played with, on all sorts of different music, not just kingdom songs. overall, the witness life is full of experiences and friendship. It brought me alot of joy. I am not sure if i want to go back, but at least this part is true.

however, yes, tehre is no provision for those that are irregular or df'ed (of course) for any sort of social activity. They are indeed focused on the active members of the congregation, for better or worse.

My comments we generally geared not towards personal relationships within the group, but the social environment that is cultivated by policy and procedure within the organization. For instance, the kingdom hall is never (or rarely ever) used as a place of social gathering. And while certain groups of people do get together and friendships are had, there seems to be a total lack of leadership within the movement to really bring people together. Much of the time people spend "together" at the Kingdom Hall is listening to a person lecture from the platform.

15

Cultural Mormons

by drew sagan in

over the past few days i have been doing some research on the mormon church.

i'm thinking hard about becoming a member.

ok, just kidding.

drew sagan

Over the past few days I have been doing some research on the Mormon Church. I'm thinking hard about becoming a member.

Ok, just kidding. But I have found out some interesting things about the Mormons that I did not know before. One major one is the concept of 'Cultural Mormons'. People that do no believe LDS doctrine, but continue as being active or irregular in the church to retain the benefits of being involved in the group.

I find this quite amazing. This phenomenon is basically non-existent in the Watchtower. I suppose it mainly has to do with how little the Watchtower is willing to give back to their members. There are no social activities at the Kingdom Hall, nor anything that is geared towards certain groups within the congregation (kids, men, women, ect). The Witnesses do nothing with music or art, and have developed a pretty bland and routine existence.

So, when people realize that the Watchtower is "not the truth" there is little reason for them to want to stay. Sometimes they may stay for family, but even that doesn't usually last forever.

But not for the Mormons. It seems there is a growing number who are able to find away to stay in the faith, keep some of the social benefits, and deal with it.

I wonder how many of us would have stayed "Cultural Witnesses" if the Watchtower didn't come down so hard on everybody and actually invested back in the members somewhat (especially socially).

Here are some links that describe this more in depth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Mormon

http://www.newordermormon.org/

72

A witness dinner- Puts on Samuel Herds {Gov.body} talk I nearly choked!

by Witness 007 in

visiting my mum she made me go to my first meeting in years.

a brother i studied with invites me to dinner....nice change i thought!

rumor has it that i have become in-active....true!

drew sagan

Wow!

If there is a full version of this in mp3 I would really like to get my hands on it.

If the rest of the GB are like this guy the Watchtower is in big trouble.

Throughout all of Watchtower history there never has been much question as to whether or not the leaders of the movement actually believe what they teach. They may be proud, arrogant, selfish, and condescending but they never put forth stuff they actually did not believe. They typically believed all the nonsense and only give it up after it has been proven beyond a doubt that it can't be true.

The full scope of the Governing Bodies isolationism is completely apparent within this talk. Within the setting of talking to fellow JW followers he can say anything he wants about how terrible college professors and religious leaders are. He can let loose on how they will be 'beaten with clubs' for leading people away from Jehovah's Witnesses. I fully believe this comes mainly from fear of the outside world. This man is part of a group of men who have isolated themselves for well over 100 years in the ivory tower of the Watchtower. They answer to no one. They proclaim themselves as the greatest thing on earth, and then when people come to challenge them on their claim they say it is beneath them to defend it.

Such meaningless isolation will be to the utter doom of the Watchtower. If this is how much of the other GB thinks, there will be no JWs in 50-60 years (at least, there will not be very many).

67

Jerry Bergman on JWs destroying library books

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

the number of my books in academic libraries.

i have authored several scholarly books and monographs about the jehovahs witnesses.

my books and articles on the watchtower and related topics are found in hundreds of university, college and other libraries, and have also been translated into 12 languages.

drew sagan

Another member of this elitist club is Wayne Magnani of witness inc.

Both gentlemen have views of brotherhood and community that are as narrow and exclusionary as those they learned from the Watchtower.

I remember talking to a fellow on the phone from Witness Inc. a good while back, right when I was coming out. For whatever reason I mentioned how much I liked Ray Franz's books. The fellow on the other end railed on me and told me that it was a shame that Ray Franz wasn't a "true christian" because he didn't believe the trinity.

Talking with that guy made me sick to my stomach. What a judgmental jerk he was.

30

DC Experiences - reality vs. perception

by sir82 in

jw
friends

at a recent dc, an elderly sister was interviewed.

she recounted how she endured through many years of her husband's opposition, never giving up, until finally he relented.

eventually, he bacame baptized and joined her in the full-time pioneer work.. end of experience.

drew sagan

My experience with "experiences":

There seems to be a lot of pressure on those who are asked to give the parts on assemblies and conventions to find great stories to tell. I believe the pressure on these one to "bring home the bacon" so to speak is what really leads to the misrepresentation you see. I was on the assembly program twice and can say without a doubt that the Elder in charge of the part was pretty stressed out because he was having a hard time finding any experience at all that matched what the WTS wanted. One Elder in particular worked with me for around 30-45 minutes or so until we formed the "experience" I had into something that was acceptable for the platform.

In my local area the same experiences were used over and over again. My own personal experience was on the state three times. I later noticed that the same people I shared the state with also were on the assembly program multiple times. One guy I believe was at least on four different programs, telling the same story. I'm sure he has been back a few times since I left two years ago.

I think it comes down to the fact that so few new people are coming into the organization there really are no exciting stories to tell. Those in charge of finding these stories essentially have to resort to leaving out facts and other distortions to match what the WTS wants. Most of those guys are hoping to receive a position in the org down the road and don't want to screw up.